tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2670213486548123819.post6814199150772328297..comments2024-03-24T21:42:17.025-04:00Comments on Loose Threads: <small>Yet Another Costuming Blog</small>: More on Late Medieval UnderwearCathy Raymondhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04580681386443534011noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2670213486548123819.post-77383273899739486192012-10-12T17:11:49.160-04:002012-10-12T17:11:49.160-04:00Thanks for that, Cathy. According to my OED, neith...Thanks for that, Cathy. According to my OED, neither 'pad nor 'wad' seem to have been in use before the mid C16th in English.<br /><br />The shift would have absorbed some sweat but I would be surprised if some other way was not found to protect the clothing of the nobility. Somewhere - a long time ago - I read that women in the C18th and C19th used removable triangles of padded cloth under their arms for just such this purpose.<br /><br />Bother, either I shall have to skirt around the subject (pun intended)or beg a degree of artistic licence.<br /><br />Thanks for a great blog, btw.CF Dunnhttp://cfdunn.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2670213486548123819.post-16492287852988180102012-10-11T11:41:06.687-04:002012-10-11T11:41:06.687-04:00I'm glad I could be useful.
I had not heard t...I'm glad I could be useful.<br /><br />I had not heard that women used padded cloth triangles under the arms of their dresses in the 18th and 19th centuries; do you recall what book or article you found that statement in? I'd love to read it. <br /><br />As for the medieval women, here's two things to think about:<br /><br />1) Shifts could be worn in multiple layers, depending on circumstances.<br />2) The most ornate medieval garments were worn over multiple layers of clothing. Thus, there would be several layers--shift and kirtle, say--protecting such garments from sweat.<br />3) We don't know what the prevailing attitude of medieval women--even noble ones--to having sweat odors in their garments. It might not have been a big deal to them. It seems unlikely that they would have our modern urge to keep their clothing pristine indefinitely.Cathy Raymondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04580681386443534011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2670213486548123819.post-92215022396753464272012-10-11T10:21:17.221-04:002012-10-11T10:21:17.221-04:00Thanks for that, Cathy. According to my OED, neith...Thanks for that, Cathy. According to my OED, neither 'pad nor 'wad' seem to have been in use before the mid C16th in English.<br /><br />The shift would have absorbed some sweat but I would be surprised if some other way was not found to protect the clothing of the nobility. Somewhere - a long time ago - I read that women in the C18th and C19th used removable triangles of padded cloth under their arms for just such this purpose.<br /><br />Bother, either I shall have to skirt around the subject (pun intended)or beg a degree of artistic licence.<br /><br />Thanks for a great blog, btw.CF Dunnhttp://cfdunn.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2670213486548123819.post-10351234426129526072012-10-10T14:43:22.423-04:002012-10-10T14:43:22.423-04:00I know of no such thing before the 1950s, sorry. ...I know of no such thing before the 1950s, sorry. My impression is that the purpose of wearing a shift was to absorb sweat, but I don't know of anything suggesting that there was reason to believe that medieval women were concerned about absorbing sweat from their armpits in particular. <br /><br />As for names that might have been use for such an item (assuming it were used), "cloth" or "rag" both come to mind; I doubt there would be a specific term since there's no evidence that such an item was in common use. <br /><br />As for whether "pad" or "wad" were words in use, you might want to take a look at the OED and see what it has to say about the etymology of those words; perhaps one or both of them was in use in Middle English. Good luck!Cathy Raymondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04580681386443534011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2670213486548123819.post-10263113415930003622012-10-10T14:00:20.440-04:002012-10-10T14:00:20.440-04:00 This is a subject where I feel woefully ignorant ... This is a subject where I feel woefully ignorant and I’m hoping that someone here will be able to help. Is there any evidence that women of mid to late C15th England (but anywhere in Western Europe will do in desperation) wore pads of cloth (probably linen) under their armpits to protect their outer clothes from sweat? <br /><br />If not, can anyone think of a plausible term that could be used to describe such an item, as ‘pad’ and ‘wad’ were words not yet in use, as far as I understand?<br />CF Dunnhttp://cfdunn.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2670213486548123819.post-83949996551685418682012-08-26T10:02:11.175-04:002012-08-26T10:02:11.175-04:00Thanks, way back in the dark ages, when I was in p...Thanks, way back in the dark ages, when I was in pg school, DNA was really in its infancy, and now it is a truly remarkable tool. So much has changed in the last 30 or so years! Still don't get all that much DNA out of 13 million year old rhinos, tho! :)Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17717382843550131146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2670213486548123819.post-89588503942892899602012-08-24T17:31:25.716-04:002012-08-24T17:31:25.716-04:00hey, no problem! as i said above, i mostly do pre...hey, no problem! as i said above, i mostly do pre-Columbian hunter-gatherers, but really I am a student of all of humanity- especially thanks to my 4-field anthro schooling (classic American style anthro teaching includes cultural anthro, archaeology, physical anthro, and linguistics).<br /><br />I also just love to do raw, unadulterated research when I have the time. I can get lost in stacks at a research uni or in links galore for hours... days... and add that to a penchant for dressup and big boobs that need support, well, you get me!<br /><br />I found your site because i recently joined the SCA as a beginner heavy fighter and was looking for a really good examination (with experiments) of all the apron dress data, since I had the bright idea of using the apron dress like a jack of plates for fighting. (if you are interested, i'm doing a mashup of finds from birka and hedeby, with concessions to armor requirements)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2670213486548123819.post-33113331117053532402012-08-24T17:20:19.141-04:002012-08-24T17:20:19.141-04:00oops, thought i hit reply, kim! but it ended up as...oops, thought i hit reply, kim! but it ended up as a new comment- see below.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2670213486548123819.post-79549167710947025582012-08-23T19:02:21.684-04:002012-08-23T19:02:21.684-04:00@synj-munki: Believing as I do that archaeology i...@synj-munki: Believing as I do that archaeology is rapidly changing what we thought we knew about early costume, I am very pleased to have archaeologists comment on this blog. (Katrin Kania is also an archaeologist, as you may know.) Thanks for your comments.Cathy Raymondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04580681386443534011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2670213486548123819.post-59983018321435814472012-08-23T18:59:31.801-04:002012-08-23T18:59:31.801-04:00@Kim, inconclusive means they did not get enough o...@Kim, inconclusive means they did not get enough of a sequence to verify male or female. It may have something to do with the fact X chromosomes last longer after death/removal from living body than Y chromosomes. It's why matrilineal DNA is easier to sequence than patrilineal- the wimpy Y just doesn't last. <br /><br />(for what it's worth, I'm a practicing archaeologist with specialty in hunter-gatherers, especially pre-Columbian North American hunter-gatherers... I can talk for HOURS about poo and other bodily functions and the data we can get from it!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2670213486548123819.post-24763630030460105692012-08-23T09:40:43.397-04:002012-08-23T09:40:43.397-04:00Hm, what does inconclusive mean? No complete chro...Hm, what does inconclusive mean? No complete chromosomes? And yes, skidmarks seem a possibility too. Gosh, who would think underwear could provide such entertainment, much less consternation?Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17717382843550131146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2670213486548123819.post-64682266038859553242012-08-21T12:13:40.650-04:002012-08-21T12:13:40.650-04:00I am going to echo your point- we don't have w...I am going to echo your point- we don't have women in underpants in artwork (EXCEPT where the woman is shown as dominating males, "wearing the pants"), but we don't have the bras in artwork, either (just some weird shaped boobies standing up like they are in an invisible bra). (and wouldn't baby diapers fit this trend? most art babies are naked or swaddled, but babies make a lot of waste and some sort of rag wrapped around their bum like a diaper sure would make sense and prevent washing the whole of the swaddling ten times a day!)<br /><br />In the latest data about the Lengburg panties, they did do a chromosomal test on the fabric (looking for XX or XY) and it turned out inconclusive. (regarding staining to be present, you'd think there would be skidmarks, too, considering the writings of medieval monks, but linen washes and sun-bleaches so nicely, that added to the length of time it would be hard to find. Shoot, the Renaissance shirts that their wearers were killed in and the shirts then put in a church reticule unwashed, the blood stains barely stand out from the stains of sweat and time)<br /><br />I would think they would want *something* to hold menstrual rags, but who knows; i'd have to find the source again but I recall an early 19th/late 18th C writing describing country girls in eastern europe working in weaving houses that had to spread hay on the ground to soak up menstrual blood because they thought wearing underpants would caused the flow to back up and kill them. (way later than these underpants, though).<br /><br />I guess I'm saying- I agree, the story of late medieval underwear is far from fully written!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2670213486548123819.post-74839556966217920152012-08-21T10:49:54.659-04:002012-08-21T10:49:54.659-04:00Kim, you have a good point. Katrin Kania's po...Kim, you have a good point. Katrin Kania's post suggested that women might have used such a bikini-like garment at least to deal with menstrual protection. Of course, the history of menstrual protection is yet another subject, one that poses difficulties because of its private nature.<br /><br />I don't know whether any of the underwear finds have been tested for blood. On the other hand, I'd expect stains from blood to still be darker than the normal color of linen and still noticeable after 500 years; if there had been such a stain on the Lengberg bikini, it would have been remarked upon. So there may have been no reason for such testing. <br /><br />Cathy Raymondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04580681386443534011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2670213486548123819.post-32349168226165959072012-08-21T08:58:04.098-04:002012-08-21T08:58:04.098-04:00One must ask what was worn monthly to hold the var...One must ask what was worn monthly to hold the various absorbent materials in place.... which brings up the possibility of chemical testing for the extant pieces.... surely there would be traces of SOMETHING, blood, semen, urine, whatever, that could be used to decide the wearer....<br />Kimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17717382843550131146noreply@blogger.com